Curse

HigherMinion · Apr 09, 2010, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmdq

Abused on heroes ----> Easy fix: remove primary attribute from heroes, i don't see why AI characters should have the primary attribute, that way humans can be better than heroes.

Humans are already better than heroes. PvE-only skills and Personal Cons. Removing Primary Attribute is stupid.

drkn · Apr 09, 2010, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

The only place it is ever abused in pve is on heroes, because they spam their energy out...And that's a hero problem, not a SR one.

hero's so stupid to waste all the energy by spamming all skills all along. what's the solution? oh, i know - bring a necro hero to abuse SR!
...how about tweaking the hero's build so that he doesn't run out of the energy so fast? or include more e-management skills?
it is SR 'problem', dear sir.

Quote:

It's a passive effect, but requires an active playstyle (i.e. actually killing things)

however, you can stand there like a lemon and wait until the rest of the party do the killing stuff, so that you can unleash your spells again. and again. you're just 1/8 in your pt.
sure, every class has energy regeneration, but when you look at SR as gigantic innate e-regen bonus, it becomes seemingly OP.

robmdq · Apr 09, 2010, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

however, you can stand there like a lemon and wait until the rest of the party do the killing stuff, so that you can unleash your spells again. and again. you're just 1/8 in your pt.
sure, every class has energy regeneration, but when you look at SR as gigantic innate e-regen bonus, it becomes seemingly OP.

Then it is a party problem for letting one member stand there like a lemmon and not doing nothing, sorry, not a problem with SR itself. I like to use a popular saying for these cases "it is not the pig's fault, it is the one's who feed them fault" (more or less, not easy to translate sayings)

Allamorph · Apr 09, 2010, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

n/rt, as a support, not a main healer, is pretty much as good as rt/n.

Translation: Yes, you're right, but that doesn't mean you're right.

You want to talk about necromancers using Soul Reaping to do the jobs of other classes better the other classes can do them? That automatically assumes the necro can and will be taking the main role.

Additionally, he said Rt/X, not Rt/N. I mean, heck, I just got through being a smartass about reading posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

hero's so stupid to waste all the energy by spamming all skills all along. what's the solution? oh, i know - bring a necro hero to abuse SR!
...how about tweaking the hero's build so that he doesn't run out of the energy so fast? or include more e-management skills?
it is SR 'problem', dear sir.

Speaking of pointing out people's logic....

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

however, you can stand there like a lemon and wait until the rest of the party do the killing stuff, so that you can unleash your spells again.

And this is a problem? You play a mesmer, for crying out loud. So do I ( although balancing play time between the classes I have is a bit tricky at times), and that sounds like the same thing I do with her—wanding like a lemon with a staff—the only difference being I'm waiting for skill recharge and not energy to start my next spike.

If the class ever has to sit there waiting for their energy to refill, whether through natural regeneration or boosts from area deaths, the discussion of brokenness shouldn't even come up. Necros don't have to slot skills for energy management? Neither do Paragons; like I said earlier, simply maintaining Aggressive Refrain ensures my energy is always at maximum.

Can I have my Leadership bonus denied? Sure...if I stand there like a lemon and spear without a) moving outside the damn Well of Silence or b) calling Vocal Minority et al. Someone else in the party can take care of it, and most likely will take care of it since they want SY on them. Can anyone else in the party help the necro with their energy regain when it's denied for fifteen seconds by a triple-activation?

(Answer: there's a chant for Paras and one, maybe a couple more skills for Rits that do that, but who slots those things when everyone in high-end is rabid for MOAR DAMAGE? So essentially, as I said before, SOL—unless you bring that one skill you need. =O)

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

sure, every class has energy regeneration, but when you look at SR as gigantic innate e-regen bonus, it becomes seemingly OP.

Remember basic application of statistics? Energy regain is on average [rank]e per five seconds, but in practice it is not [rank]e per five seconds. It is [rank]e whenever something dies and if a fourth thing dies before the time limit is up then sucks for you. It used to be a massive bonus. Now it's just hefty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmdq

Abused on heroes ----> Easy fix: remove primary attribute from heroes, i don't see why AI characters should have the primary attribute, that way humans can be better than heroes.

Bahaha.

Also, removing the non-Ranger skill bonus means the R/Rt wrangler will die, and I have a few friends who would be sad; plus it'd go counter to drkn's thing about buffing the other class primaries instead. But if that were implemented (because it at least makes more sense than OMFG NERF SR), you might want ER to be modified to only return a bonus for casting elementalist spells. And that in turn would destroy ER Infusers and ER Bonders and oh Lord can you imagine the outcry.

Which would be amusing.

HigherMinion · Apr 09, 2010, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

however, you can stand there like a lemon and wait until the rest of the party do the killing stuff, so that you can unleash your spells again. and again. you're just 1/8 in your pt.
sure, every class has energy regeneration, but when you look at SR as gigantic innate e-regen bonus, it becomes seemingly OP.

So it's not a problem then, you've concluded? I mean... If you have to wait for energy to regen, like everyone else then there is no issue, and SR is not overpowered.

The End?

reaper with no name · Apr 09, 2010, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allamorph

You want to talk about necromancers using Soul Reaping to do the jobs of other classes better the other classes can do them? That automatically assumes the necro can and will be taking the main role.

Neither do Paragons; like I said earlier, simply maintaining Aggressive Refrain ensures my energy is always at maximum.

Remember basic application of statistics? Energy regain is on average [rank]e per five seconds, but in practice it is not [rank]e per five seconds. It is [rank]e whenever something dies and if a fourth thing dies before the time limit is up then sucks for you. It used to be a massive bonus. Now it's just hefty.

It doesn't matter if they actually bother to do those things; only whether or not they can. Not doing so simply means they have better things to do (or other things they have more fun doing).

Go try a Paragon MM. Then we'll talk.

Ok, how about we assume that on average, you'll get the benefit of SR twice every 15 seconds. That means that without doing anything additional, and without sacrificing a skill slot, you get an average of almost 20 energy every 15 seconds. How is that not overpowered?

robmdq · Apr 09, 2010, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allamorph

Bahaha.

Also, removing the non-Ranger skill bonus means the R/Rt wrangler will die, and I have a few friends who would be sad; plus it'd go counter to drkn's thing about buffing the other class primaries instead. But if that were implemented (because it at least makes more sense than OMFG NERF SR), you might want ER to be modified to only return a bonus for casting elementalist spells. And that in turn would destroy ER Infusers and ER Bonders and oh Lord can you imagine the outcry.

Which would be amusing.

I was actually being sarcastic, but hey, let's do that, the only non ranger skill i got in my two main bars is rebrth

On the necro, i never really relied on SR for anything, which wont stop me for trying to prevent one of my favorite classes to get nerfed just for the sake of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Go try a Paragon MM. Then we'll talk.

Ok, how about we assume that on average, you'll get the benefit of SR twice every 15 seconds. That means that without doing anything additional, and without sacrificing a skill slot, you get an average of almost 20 energy every 15 seconds. How is that not overpowered?

I always though MM was a NECROMANCER build, not a paragon build....

Anyways, why would anybody spent so many stat points into SR?

I will have to research a bit about "new" builds out there, but usually after loading up some average build you are lucky if u have SR 3 (counting on a minor rune there). Anyways, most new builds aren't for core skills, so if you are proposing to nerf my core characters because of some excpansion added something that messed up with the attrib, better nerf the new ones and do not touch the core classes, they were bastarded more than enough already to be trying to get them even worse.

Reformed · Apr 09, 2010, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

...you get an average of almost 20 energy every 15 seconds. How is that not overpowered?

It's hard to make meaningful comparisons because they don't all work the same way but if you want to look at just potential energy gains a paragon can return that much in the same time frame from leadership. An assassin could easily do that much or more with some zealous daggers and decent crit strikes spec.

Will Mason · Apr 09, 2010, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmdq

Abused on heroes ----> Easy fix: remove primary attribute from heroes, i don't see why AI characters should have the primary attribute, that way humans can be better than heroes.

Expertise ----> my main is ranger, and i think you are right, at a certain extent. Fix: remove Expertise ability to affect non-ranger skills, but if you touch expertise so it affect ranger skills it will then probably be the worse nerf ever done to an already over-nerfed class.

The fact that SR is abused on heroes to heal has little effect on gameplay... Human monks can still outperform those heroes most of the time because they're a lot smarter with energy and have access to PvE skills, and it makes little difference to the heroes if you take a player monk healer over them. You also have to remember that other professions have their own primary attributes that make up for this.

Rangers aren't overnerfed, most of their skills just outperform the others due to power creep and a large majority made up of pet/traps/nature rituals. Which is why you see the same bars a lot on rangers.

Your suggested nerf is overkill too, all that's needed is to remove the expertise effect on secondary class attack skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

however, you can stand there like a lemon and wait until the rest of the party do the killing stuff, so that you can unleash your spells again. and again. you're just 1/8 in your pt.
sure, every class has energy regeneration, but when you look at SR as gigantic innate e-regen bonus, it becomes seemingly OP.

So it's not a problem then, you've concluded? I mean... If you have to wait for energy to regen, like everyone else then there is no issue, and SR is not overpowered.

The End?

Huh, that's what I gathered from his logic too. Amazing. But in the end, my point comes back. Post-Nerf SR with the limit is not useful for spamming, which would make it OP. The end trigger effect makes it useful for MMs, heroes, and a few other bars, but often you still need e-management skills like SoLS. Obviously it's not "unlimited energy" since this is the case.

drkn · Apr 09, 2010, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

So it's not a problem then, you've concluded? I mean... If you have to wait for energy to regen, like everyone else then there is no issue, and SR is not overpowered.

The End?

Quote:

Huh, that's what I gathered from his logic too. Amazing.

people have a tendency to see what they want to see. some words are like a mirror.

every class has an innate energy regeneration. necro's e-regen is extrapolated. SR is not a skill and not any form of active e-management. even an ele has to keep ER up and cover it in several locations. even a para has to use shouts, therefore thinking about e-management beforehand and using suitable skills to aid leadership.
SR is completely passive. unstrippable. even though it's 'ticks' may go for a waste if four mobs die in the same second, it's still superior, as it's undisruptible and works without even paying attention.

as for standing like a lemon. i believed in your reading abilities, but let me say it all VERY simply.
the party has just approached a group. assume that you've unleashed all your high energy spells and your energy is 3 now. not enough to cast anything. you may use a skill that gives you back the energy - spirit siphon, ether signet, shout something. that may be effective, but requires a skill slot especially for e-management, it may be disrupted, interrupted, disabled.
you may also just wait until your innate energy regen gets you enough energy to do something instead of wanding. as a caster, you have 4 pips of regen - or 4 energy every 3 seconds (20 energy every 15 seconds of doing nothing). it takes a while, especially mid-combat.
unless you're a necromancer. at 10 SR, you will gain 30 energy in the next 15 seconds, as long as your party does the killing. so if you take your time to write a text - and it takes exactly 15 seconds - you'll end up with 53 e rather than 33. it doesn't matter how fast monsters around you died.
it gets even better in the first five seconds. let's assume that you've approached the mobs with full energy, used it all up to devastate them somehow and now you have to regen your energy. still, your curses has been cast, you have dealt your damage - the mobs are seemingly weaker than at the beginning. the rest of your party probably will kill most of them off, at least 2-3, before you are able to cast something again thanks to 4 pips of e regen. extra 30 energy after five seconds of fights, even with 15s gap in SR triggering, is still imbalanced - that energy will probably let you kill - or seriously damage - or throw in another curse on - the remaining mobs. and before you approach another group, there's usually at least 5-10s space, so that SR may 'recharge'.
to compare, an activated skill, ether signet, that has a very nasty requirement at low inspiration, has a recharge of 45s. it can be disabled, rupted, timed wrong and wasted. drain enchantment? 20s recharge. power drain? nearly impossible to time out in HM, 20s recharge. the skills' recharges are longer than SR's. how is that fine?

was long, but i hoped that you could understand what i meant in the first place. yes, you may stand like a lemon and get 30 additional energy from doing nothing while your teammates kill stuff, and then you can do something again, rather than use an e-management skill, like the rest of us, or wand until you get your energy back from the pips.

e: still, i would prefer to see other primairy caster atts buffed to SR level. i'm just pointing out that SR is seriously imbalanced and too powerful compared to other options in general pve. same as ER infusing or running an imbagon. though i have a general anti-nerf attitude - instead of nerfing what's powerful and imbalanced, but working, would be better to buff what's unused.
however, if buffing loads of other skills/atts is not an option, it's better to tone down the OP rather than leave it be,

The Drunkard · Apr 09, 2010, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Ok, how about we assume that on average, you'll get the benefit of SR twice every 15 seconds. That means that without doing anything additional, and without sacrificing a skill slot, you get an average of almost 20 energy every 15 seconds. How is that not overpowered?

A majority of the skills necros use have hefty energy costs, which should be its balancing factor. However, Anet decided to give rits healing skills that didn't rely on their primary that are cheap and spammable, and as a result they are exploited by necs. AP is also another problem in that it enables necs to constantly cast high energy spells WITH a low cooldown. SR is a problem, but it's not THE problem.

/notsigned

Will Mason · Apr 09, 2010, 11:35 PM // 23:35

It's fine because it serves necromancer skills well and isn't being abused on secondary profession skills (aside from heroes, but I already talked about that)... Necros have high cost skills for a reason...in order to balance it out. The e-management is definitely greater in magnitude but the trade-offs are different and you're attempting to completely leave that out of the discussion.

To use your example, since you like comparing apples and oranges:

Do necros have energy problems? Yes, they often bring SoLS or AP.

Do paragons have energy problems? Not really, they spam shouts and can use high attacks/chants with ease without any e-management skills besides the shouts they were already going to bring.

Necros gain more energy with 2 more regen than paras but often require additional e-management? By your apples to oranges logic that sounds like Leadership needs a nerf.

drkn · Apr 09, 2010, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Necros have high cost skills for a reason...in order to balance it out.

i don't really think all their useful skills are omgexpensive. sorry, the 'primairy att is so powerful to balance out xyz' is just utter crap - if that was the case, only paras, rangers and necs would have expensive skills (most of them) due to their primairy (and some ele, due to their higher max energy), while only mesmers would have 3+s cast times (most of spells, again). it's not the issue, just a connection to get another 'argument'.
some nec skills are expensive - same as some mes skills, some monk skills. some curses are 3s cast time, loads of ele spells got long cast time - it's not a way to 'balance out the FC mesmer powah', as you would like to see the connection there.

galbat0rixx · Apr 09, 2010, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Too much fuss if you ask me, SR might enable necros to mimic other classes "better", but it hasn't rendered every other primary class useless, the necro only has the choice of N/x, there's still plenty of builds the necro can't hope to use, for example a Rt/Mo build wouldn't be achievable by a Necro, as it is limited to it's primary profession.

So bottom line is the necromancer's might give it advantages for some things, but it doesn't mean it can do anything better than any other profession.

Cuilan · Apr 10, 2010, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by galbat0rixx

So bottom line is the necromancer's might give it advantages for some things, but it doesn't mean it can do anything better than any other profession.

They can use Fevered Dreams better.
They have stronger AP builds that can be used in speed clears.

That's an example of one profession that was mentioned in this thread. You are incorrect.

HigherMinion · Apr 10, 2010, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

They can use Fevered Dreams better.
They have stronger AP builds that can be used in speed clears.

That's an example of one profession that was mentioned in this thread. You are incorrect.

They have stronger AP builds because Mark of Pain is hax and just Curses are better in general; nothing to do with Soul Reaping. Mesmers just have inferior hexes.

I know Xeno says FDnec>FDmes, but having played both, I'd have to say he's wrong. The FC helps more than the extra skilllslot which I save from energy management with SR. FD on a necro is slow and boring.

MagmaRed · Apr 10, 2010, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by robmdq

Abused on heroes ----> Easy fix: remove primary attribute from heroes, i don't see why AI characters should have the primary attribute, that way humans can be better than heroes.

Wow.... you didn't think about that one much did you? So, a N/Rt can't be an effective healer anymore because they no long had passive energy management to spam heals with.... But, you also remove the ability for Rangers to make use of Throw Dirt, Lightning Reflexes, Glass Arrows, etc., or Monks from using Blessed Light, Unyielding Aura, Blessed Signet, etc., or Warriors from using Enraging Charge, Flail, Bull's Strike, etc., or Assassin's from using Twisting Fangs, Critical Defenses, Assassin's Remedy, etc....... See where this is going? I didn't bring into account things like Warrior's Endurance or Way of the Assassin, but just typical build skills.

Not having the attribute removes those skills. Sure, maybe they will have access to the skills, just can't put attribute points into them, but then the stances last such a short time, nobody would use them, the enchantments would be the same, and the damage/duration would not be worth using. You would kill almost any build except ones that can bypass a primary attribute COMPLETELY, and not many of those exist.

Cuilan · Apr 10, 2010, 01:14 AM // 01:14

I was directly replying to the quoted post, Higher Minion. You would think getting the hexes and conditions up faster would give mesmers an edge with the addition of blind, but its worthless when you can't cast.

Xenomortis · Apr 10, 2010, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I know Xeno says FDnec>FDmes, but having played both, I'd have to say he's wrong. The FC helps more than the extra skilllslot which I save from energy management with SR. FD on a necro is slow and boring.

It depends largely on how long a fight lasts. If a fight is over really quickly then the Mes can frontload their skills more easily (can gain energy before the Nec reliably can) but then they're less useful - if you blew the enemy up that quick then they weren't much threat and you weren't valuable.
If a fight lasts a bit longer and you want to keep casting then the Necro quickly catches up.

The only gains from the Mes primary is a faster cast on FD itself and the ability to take Blind (at the cost of another skill). I hold Blind to be somewhat overrated, Weakness covers the threat of physicals most of the time (and is much easier to inflict) and the only time I generally wish for blind is when I'm against a large number of annoying Rangers - even then I prefer Aegis since it's much easier to use and much more reliable with no conditions - skills that cause blind often have a condition attached or are very expensive.
Since I tend to only use FD when I H/H, the cast time on FD is of little concern since I simply cast it to initiate aggro (less so if the mob is moving or requires careful pulling).

The gain from the Nec primary is Soul Reaping, that is much more energy over the long run. I also free up a skill slot since I need less for energy management.

Will Mason · Apr 10, 2010, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

i don't really think all their useful skills are omgexpensive. sorry, the 'primairy att is so powerful to balance out xyz' is just utter crap - if that was the case, only paras, rangers and necs would have expensive skills (most of them) due to their primairy (and some ele, due to their higher max energy), while only mesmers would have 3+s cast times (most of spells, again). it's not the issue, just a connection to get another 'argument'.
some nec skills are expensive - same as some mes skills, some monk skills. some curses are 3s cast time, loads of ele spells got long cast time - it's not a way to 'balance out the FC mesmer powah', as you would like to see the connection there.

Sorry I had to lol...Of course there's a connection...Except you have it backwards. Skills are based around the profession's primary attribute, not the other way around, so that hopefully, they're the best ones at using it. A lot of curses necro skills are 10-15 energy and MM skills are 10-25 energy to make up for SR's benefit.

Just like a lot of mesmer skills are 2-3 second cast, Ele skills are long cast to balance out their damage with easy ruptability and are high energy so that generally you need an attunement. Monk spells at the same energy cost generally heal for less than rit heals because DF is taken into account. Rangers have high energy preparations and natural rituals. Do I really need to go on?